Do men or women have fantasies of dominance and submission? The results! (NoH)

This comment thread is the “No Hostility” thread. Please read this and this for the ground rules. The “Regular Parallel” thread can be found here.

In last post about dominance, submission, and desire, I explored some research on people’s sexual fantasies. Since feminists primarily portray men as enjoying sexual dominance, and pickup artists primarily portray men as giving it and women as wanting it, I’m exploring how well these views match up to research. The study we are looking at was conducted by Hawley & Hensley at the University of Kansas.1

I played a little guessing game on the blog. I posted the fantasy scenes from the study and asked readers to guess how popular they were. Several of you guys had some pretty good guesses, and Cessen and manboobz got it right. Now it’s finally time to talk about the results!

Keep in mind when reading the results that this study was about fantasies, not about people’s preferences in real life.

Women are subs, men are switches

For the first fantasy scene of your classmate pushing you up against the wall after class, here were how men and women rated the fantasies on a 7-point scale:

Women fantasizing about being in the dominant role 2.47
Men fantasizing about being in the dominant role 3.48
Women fantasizing about being in the submissive role 4.16
Men fantasizing about being in the submissive role 5.15

Women’s desires are primarily submissive and passive, and men have more dominant fantasies than women. Not very surprising. But what was surprising is that men enjoy submissive fantasies at least as much as women, and even more than they enjoy dominant fantasies!

Men preferred the female domination scenario (men’s submission fantasy) significantly more than the women preferred the female domination scenario—F(1, 452) = 14.87, p < .0001— reflecting women’s relatively low interest in playing the aggressive role in sexual exchanges (Mednick, 1977; Wilson & Lang, 1981). Women preferred the male domination scene (women’s submission fantasy) significantly more than the men preferred the male domination scene—F(1, 455) = 264.42, p < .0001—suggesting that women’s predilection for forceful submission is greater than men’s preference to fantasize about forceful domination (cf. Yost & Zurbriggen, 2006; Zurbriggen, 2000). In addition, men’s preference for the scenario depicting him being dominated by an aggressive woman was greater than women’s preference for the scenario depicting her being dominated by an aggressive man, F(1, 451) = 36.01, p < .0001. In other words, men had a higher preference for submissive fantasies than did women. Moreover, both men and women preferred the submissive fantasies over the fantasies in which they themselves were portrayed as dominant: men, F(1, 228.5) = 50.61, p < .0001; women, F(1, 225) = 44.21, p < .0001—that is, both genders preferred being the target of aggressive advances over being the perpetrator (cf. Yost & Zurbriggen, 2006).

The researchers found the same pattern with the second fantasy, about someone aggressively initiating sex at a party (read my previous post to see the scenario). They asked the participants how often they have fantasies like it, and discovered some astonishing figures:

Only 6.64% of the entire sample denied ever having the fantasy (and thus were dropped from our analysis of meaning). A full 66.2% of men and 57.52% of women reported that 50% to 100% of their fantasies were on the theme represented in the vignette.

Yikes, this fantasy is popular! 66% of men and 57% of women have this sort of fantasy most of the time they fantasize. And men have it more! Remember, this is a fantasy where someone aggressively initiates sex, giving an opportunity for the other person to refuse, but proceeding with a “yes.” In real life, such a scenario would be nonconsensual, but apparently these kinds of scenes are common in romance novels. Hawley & Hensley emphasize that forceful fantasies are different from what people want in reality.2 Even though fantasies may reveal general themes in someone’s desires in an exaggerated fashion, that doesn’t mean that they would want the actual fantasy scenarios to happen in real life.

Other women are like me

The researchers also asked the participants to guess what percentage of women liked the fantasy. The discovered that in women, but not men, one other variable predicted how high a percentage women would guess: whether she herself liked the fantasy. The researchers concluded: “when women estimate for other women, they look solely to their own preferences.” This is the classic typical mind fallacy of projecting one’s mental structure onto others.

Men don’t project their preferences onto women, but do they project them onto men? We don’t know, because the researchers unfortunately didn’t have the participants attempt to guess what men fantasize about.

Summary

Let’s recap the results we’ve found so far:

  1. Women strongly prefer submissive fantasies to dominant ones, and about 57% of women have strongly submissive fantasies at least half the time they fantasize
  2. Everyone prefers the fantasy where they get to be the one who is pursued and submissive
  3. On average, women find dominant fantasies to be crappy (women rating the female-dominance fantasy gave it a 2.5 out of 7, the worst rating any of the fantasies got)
  4. Women like men to be dominant more than men like to be dominant
  5. Men like the male-submissive fantasy more than the male-dominant fantasy; 66% of men have submissive fantasies at least half the time
  6. Men like the submissive fantasy role even more than women do
  7. Women project their preferences onto other women

We do have to admit that this was a study of college students. Since college students are a certain slice of the population, we would have to be careful about generalizing from these results… except that other studies have found similar results. Some of these studies are discussed by Hawley & Hensley in their introduction, and I’d like to highlight the Zurbriggen & Yost study from 2004.3

Unlike Hawley & Hensley’s sample of 900 college students, Zurbriggen & Yost studied 162 people 21-45. They used a completely different methodology: instead of giving people scenarios, they asked people to write down fantasies, and then coded the answers for power themes. A similar pattern emerged of women’s fantasies gravitating towards submission, but men’s being split between dominance and submission: “Although men were equally likely to fantasize about dominance and submission, women were more likely to fantasize about submission.”

The main difference was this study didn’t find men to be more submissive than dominant, or more submissive than women: submissive themes were as common as dominant themes in men’s fantasies, and submissive themes in women’s fantasies were the biggest theme.

In our next installment, we will talk about the implications of these results, and what they say about feminist and pickup artist worldviews towards sexuality.

There’s more juicey stuff in the Hawley & Hensley study to discuss, and you can read it yourself.

  1. Hawley, P. H., & Hensely, William A. (2009). Social Dominance and Forceful Submission Fantasies: Feminine Pathology or Power?. Journal of Sex Research, 46(6), 568-585.[]

  2. We do not believe that our results should in any way be taken to mean that “women approve of rape” or that “dominant women want to be raped,”’ and so forth (cf. Maslow, 1942). More important, women who entertain submission fantasies clearly indicate no wish to be raped (Kanin, 1982), and when guided through imagery of a realistic rape, women express disgust and fear (Bond & Mosher, 1986). In submission fantasies (of both women and men), in contrast to the reality of rape, the fantasist is in complete control and ascribes his or her own meaning to the exchange.

    []

  3. Zurbriggen, E. L., & Yost, M. R. (2004). Power desire and pleasure in sexual fantasies. Journal of Sex Research, 41, 288–300.
    []

37 Comments

  1. Schala says:

    This doesn’t surprise me much, given the ratios in the BDSM community, it just fits like a glove with the population estimates I had:

    40% submissive men
    30% submissive women
    (more men submissive than women)

    20% dominant men
    10% dominant women
    (more men dominant than women)

    Of course, it sucks for the majority submissive men who have to fight over the minuscule ratio of dominant women.

  2. Clarence says:

    Schala:

    I’d love to see where you got those population estimates.

    For one, the vast majority of bdsm porn is male top/female bottom. Indeed, I’ve seen sites remove content with female domination, because it wasn’t selling.

    This doesn’t make sense if your idea is true because according to every survey I’ve ever seen men are the main purchasers of porn, yet men into BDSM are overwhelmingly buying male dominant/female submissive stuff.

    It also doesn’t match my personal experiences. Not only have I participated in some mild consensual kink but I know quite a few kinksters. There simply don’t seem to be that many submissive or even “switch” men in the scene at most events.

    And yeah, the one time I went to party at a place not to be named in NYC, there were far more submissive men than dominant women. And yet this event was not only for submissives of either sex. Most of the submissives, again, were women.

    So I’m trying to figure this out here.

  3. Schala says:

    BDSM porn? I’m talking BDSM forums/communities.

    I’m member of two, and one of them has 600,000+ members. I estimated based on profiles and talks in forums.

    Why you’ll see them less in real life is that unpartnered men are seen as “there for a free show”, and are pretty negatively seen. Unpartnered women are welcomed. Most people in these events (munches, parties) are couples even if only play-couples (ie for BDSM only).

    And femdom is often way more extreme in fantasy than typical male domination. Male domination rarely involves total dehumanization and degradation and humiliation – not to this degree. I figured this from erotica, written mainly by transgender people (mostly male-identified, cross-dressers and such).

    Petticoating is pretty instructive in its fictional erotica depictions (extreme, to the point of being child abuse in real life – few would be this humiliated without consequences from child servivces, neighbors etc). Both written by very submissive men who seem to self-hate, and by apparently-very-vindictive women (think a rabid radfem who hates men and wants them to pay, more extreme than those I met online).

    Basically a practice that really did exist in Victorian times, to make boys (8+, since basically everyone was dressed as girls until 3-4 back then, for practical and hygienic reasons) “gentler, like girls”, so they were dressed as girls, and the goal was that the boy would try to be as invisible as possible (not attract attention) in order to avoid further humiliation – and thus would be gentle, polite and wouldn’t ruin the clothes (no rough and tumble, tree-climbing, mud-playing).

    The goal of the practice was basically to make a gentlemen, or dandy, out of him, so he would be marriageable. Fictional depictions often picture it as being more than this – him being dominated by his future wife, for the good of society.

    Forced sissification and babyfication are within the femdom genre and rather common fantasies it seems (especially the former), for both dominant women and submissive men. Forced servitude of the male sub is a sub-type of this (sissy French maid).

  4. Schala says:

    Oh and yeah, it might be something about submissive and porn that is negatively correlated. I certainly am not interested to buy, download, or watch porn. I might read erotica, rather sporadically. I used to read more, but I had just discovered the genre, 6 years ago.

    Porn has actors, erotica is in your mind, you imagine it. It’s easier to imagine the situation happening to you then, for me. While a dominant might want to detach from a reprehensible act (sadism) in their mind being committed by them, to save from guilt. A submissive doesn’t need to detach from masochism, wanting to be held in bondage, etc, because it’s basically wanting to be in a victim position, not reprehensible. Maybe even cathartic for someone who has not had sympathy for being a victim themselves (reliving it in a safe context, where tenderness can be shown after).

    It would be interesting to see the correspondence between porn, erotica, and degree of submissiveness and dominance.

  5. Daran says:

    It may also be the case that submissive men are particularly attracted to BDSM communities because mainstream sexual scripts are worse for them than for the other groups.

  6. Clarence says:

    Schala:

    I think you misspoke a bit, though at least some of your points are well taken. It is true that single men are charged more and often made to feel like sh** at those events. I know, because I was one. There’s tons of couples, usually a few unpartnered male and female dominants (usually more male doms as I’ve said) and usually a few single ladies. The single ladies get most of the attention if they are attractive or personable at all, the single men get, if they are lucky, relegated to events designed for them, if they are not lucky it’s basically a meat market where the unpaired female (and some male, most of these parties are open to both hets and non-hets)dominants choose the most desireable male subs or chat with the couples and other dominants they know.

    Where I think you mis-spoke was attributing babyfication to femdom. When I’ve run into adult age players (a minority within a minority in terms of kink) most of the ones r/l and on forums seem to be women. Regardless of total numbers its obvious that babyfication appeals to both males and females and is not merely an aspect of female domination. I’m much more into spanking than any other single type of kink, and the amount of times that a woman has asked “daddy” to spank her is quite large, so its obvious there are tons of female age players. On the other hand due to the history you brought out, “sissyfication” and “pettycoating” are pretty much totally associated with femdom.

    I don’t buy into your porn and erotica distinction. To me they are one and the same, as for example all the bdsm book companies seem to have far more male-dominant titles than female dominant ones. I’ve noticed this pretty much my whole life, and as one of those “switch” males its certainly not always easy finding femdom esp if you don’t want the more extreme stuff involving pettycoats and Mistresses and bullwhips.

  7. Hugh Ristik says:

    Something important to keep in mind is that this study only measured one kind of “dominance” vs. “submission”: having someone aggressively make advances towards you. This study doesn’t tell us much about how people enjoy other dominance/submission practices, nor does it tell us how much they enjoy pain (masochism). The researchers also asked people about their interpretations of the fantasies.

  8. Schala says:

    Where I think you mis-spoke was attributing babyfication to femdom. When I’ve run into adult age players (a minority within a minority in terms of kink) most of the ones r/l and on forums seem to be women. Regardless of total numbers its obvious that babyfication appeals to both males and females and is not merely an aspect of female domination. I’m much more into spanking than any other single type of kink, and the amount of times that a woman has asked “daddy” to spank her is quite large, so its obvious there are tons of female age players. On the other hand due to the history you brought out, “sissyfication” and “pettycoating” are pretty much totally associated with femdom.

    I said forced babyfication, and also forced sissyfication, and yeah it’s rarely “really forced” but the fantasy is about if it was real. I think sub men are more into the ‘forced’ element than women. Because women can be childish without being unattractive, but men might feel it substracts from their attraction and is thus only okay if seemingly “endured” instead of enjoyed.

    I’m an age player, not into “being forced” for humiliating purposes, I freely want it and don’t feel humiliated, diminished or degraded, through definitely self-conscious if not at home.

    What’s funny is that you say its mostly women, yet AB/DL* is cited by the DSM (and-recited by others often, on sites with info about it) as being 1/20 female/male ratio (I really think they’re off by a lot, but maybe not completely reversed).

    My boyfriend had never heard about AB/DL before I told him about it. And he knows quite a few kinks out there. It’s very niche. The spanking thing is much more known. And “Daddy’s Little Girl” type play is known outside the AB/DL community.

    *Adult Baby / Diaper Lover (called this way, because most ‘adepts’ are neither 100% one or the other, but more a mix depending on the person).

    And my theory about femdom being extreme like this is a sort of self-flagellation by those submissive men who like the extreme stuff, because they can’t accept their kink without the choice element being removed (shame), and/or want to be punished for being unmanly. Some women want to punish the submissive male as if he was a representation of all bad males in her life, because he won’t fight back and might even feel it’s deserved, so it doesn’t help. So to me, those extremes are examples of self-shaming guys who want to be shamed for not being dominant and women who get off on shaming men who aren’t dominant.

  9. Clarence says:

    Daran:

    I think there is probably something to your comment. I know a master PUA personally. He used to be a r/l dominant to his former wife. Long story. Anyway, he repeatedly expresses the view (and I never contradict him, though I disagree) that all women want to be dominated and have no respect whatsoever for submissive men, the ones that take on submissives only do so to use them and will drop them when a more sexually dominant male comes along, exceptions being lesbians.

    With exceptions for a few switches like myself, he doesn’t think much of men who are sexually submissive in general.

    The social script for men who are submissive and want to get conventional women to be interested in them, let alone in their kinks is absolutely toxic. Submissive men are by definition losers and perverts -even more so than otherwise ordinary men who aren’t successful with the ladies. I know this confused the heck out of me when I was in my teens and most of my twenties. Heck, even when I figured out I was a switch, and not some sort of slave, society still had no use for me. When I would top, some outside the community would call me abusive. When I would bottom, IF I could find someone to bottom to, well you better hide that shameful stuff you faux man.Certainly from most women. They’d tell you to drop dead in a heartbeat, and SOME (not most, but quite a few) of the submissive women were surprisingly not much better than a “vanilla” girl.

    I’m sure Schala has gotten all this only 10 times worse.

  10. Schala says:

    I’m sure Schala has gotten all this only 10 times worse.

    Surprisingly no.

    I didn’t date before, I wasn’t interested in sex pre-transition. I had kinky interests, but given I didn’t want to indulge in them alone, it didn’t matter. Post-transition, I would indulge in some kinky stuff I could do alone, and was rejected out of being trans, and yeah some thought or said “trans woman = really a guy”, but it mostly came off as being incompatible with their heterosexuality (in their mind anyways – my boyfriend is totally straight, for one), not disdain about being a male sub to them.

    I didn’t go to munches or parties yet, and I would think the BDSM community would be accepting of me, because:

    1) Trans people are generally more accepted in the BDSM community than elsewhere.

    2) I’m feminine-appearing and don’t look the dreaded “man in a dress” look, even if I tried. My body was at best androgynous pre-transition, I don’t look like a footballer.

    Yet I get rejected by about 75% of people, in BDSM communities, who previously thought I was attractive with my picture (yes, I don’t put my trans status in profile, because people interpret it as cross-dresser often).

  11. typhonblue says:

    Here’s the thing.

    What really is submission and what really is dominance?

    Caeser Milan says you should let a dog approach you, rather then you approaching the dog, in order to establish dominance.

    If someone has something someone else wants, to the point that the second person will approach them, isn’t that a form of dominance?

  12. VilentViolet says:

    I suppose this means, given that I’m a lot more into finding one already with inherently androgynous/feminine traits as opposed to forcing somebody into them, along with a preference for leading a relationship, I must *really* be an outlier from what the studies and common PUA knowledge suggest. Sometimes I wonder if my life would have been socially easier if I were a lesbian or born male. Another thing I find funny is that given what the comments are outlining, femdoms and the actions they carry out have common psychological linkage to revenge, radical feminism, and/or elements of shaming men with little if any mention of enjoying the acts in themselves with no underlying baggage. What is there to be said about the person who is biologically female who leans towards a dominant role, who has laughed at this notion of “women’s studies” (but no men’s studies?) in college and has never given feminism much prominent thought in her life?

    What the studies reveal definitely show an interesting and slightly unexpected trend that has good merit for further investigation, but for the sake of clarity I believe there also needs to be more research done before we can draw any conclusions from this article. What were the specific methods used for the study, as in how clearly did they define D/s roles? What can we do to ensure those roles have a more accurate portrayal in the next study done; were the students even much educated on the topic of BDSM? I think there also needs to be a more balanced representation from all age groups of sexual maturity, and perhaps an even greater sample size. I have a problem with the fact the sample came from only a midwestern university, and I’d like to see representations from all across the nation…from California to New York. I mean come on…what if these students only came from the bible belt!

    I know this is the “play-nice” thread, and I’ve been lurking a tad but I’m still kinda new… So we’re understood, this is my version of playing-nice, and I’m not trying to come across as hostile. Sincerely. Really. :P Hi guys.

  13. Cessen says:

    @typhonblue:
    That’s interesting. Certainly part of my desire to be the “pursued” or “submissive” person is for the certainty and control that would (in my imagination) bring me. As someone in the pursuing role, there is a great deal of of uncertainty about the other person’s interest/feelings, even if they appear to respond positively (been in at least one relationship where it turned out my partner never actually wanted to date me…) and that uncertainty certainly leaves me feeling very much _not_ in control of the situation.

    On the other hand, the fantasies in the study were clearly of a sort where being in the “pursued” role didn’t really offer much control. And there are aspects of control that being in that role in general do not afford you (in particular, you can only choose from the people that approach you).

    But in general, I think there’s truth in what you’re saying.

  14. VilentViolet says:

    I emphatically second typhonblue’s remark. I act like this around my peers all the time. Why should I have to bend myself over backwards to get anyone’s attention? I simply don’t; at the risk of sounding snooty I’ll light-heartedly say that it’s just…I don’t know, well, beneath me. Pretty much the only time I reach out is if I exude enough confidence to feel like I already have the cat in the bag (without giving much thought to if I actually even do or not.) Especially when getting to know someone, I often razzle-and-dazzle with my presence/aura/persona/spirit/whatever and then the energy flow and level of interest is quickly changed towards that person wanting to get to know me. Who said dominance cannot be passive? There is no black and white, clean-cut line.

  15. typhonblue says:

    @ VilentViolet

    Who said dominance cannot be passive?

    There are a lot of situations in which the approach itself is intended to cow the approacher.

    Think about the long entrance to a throne room.

  16. Schala says:

    I suppose this means, given that I’m a lot more into finding one already with inherently androgynous/feminine traits as opposed to forcing somebody into them, along with a preference for leading a relationship, I must *really* be an outlier from what the studies and common PUA knowledge suggest.

    An outlier that would be highly-sought in the feminine/androgynous, submissive-male community.

    And well, those men who are sub already are sub, but often made to be ashamed of it. They’re not dominant and made to be submissive, that’s just about impossible unless traumatized to near-death and kept in a state of fear. You can’t make people deny their own personal nature for long, without them rebelling, unless they got extreme incentive not to. Hence why trans people came out so older before, and now younger.

  17. Schala says:

    What is there to be said about the person who is biologically female who leans towards a dominant role, who has laughed at this notion of “women’s studies” (but no men’s studies?) in college and has never given feminism much prominent thought in her life?

    Those would resemble the dominant male wants narrative. It’s just drowned out by the femdom narrative, either because that’s what male subs think they deserve, or because the scarcity of female dominants make them able to pick those (while male dominants are not scarce enough to pick only slave-enclined females).

  18. Cessen says:

    @typhonblue:

    There are a lot of situations in which the approach itself is intended to cow the approacher.

    Think about the long entrance to a throne room.

    It strikes me there’s a good possibility that many of the overly-aggresive come ons from men happen in an attempt to compensate for this dynamic (whether perceived or real).

  19. machina says:

    The ratings out of seven aren’t that different proportionately.

    Women: 62.75% submissive, 37.25% dominant
    Men: 59.68% submissive, 40.32% dominant

  20. Just a Metalhead says:

    I think Machina is on to something here. It seems that men, whether for biological (testosterone) or sociological reasons (or a combination of both), just plain like sexual fantasies better. This is consequent with many studies which agree that men have an higher sex drive in general. However, if you look at the relative desirability of submissive versus dominant fantasies, then both men and women prefer submissive fantasies. I mean, the men’s rating for the fantasies in both cases is basically a 1-point difference (2,47 to 3,48 and 4,16 to 5,15). So maybe both actually prefer submissive scenarios, and the difference is just in men’s higher sex drive and desirability of sex in itself.

    However, as pointed out, I think one should make a difference between dominant/submissive social behavior (or maybe rather passive/active) and dominant/submissive in terms of BDSM or the like. I mean, I personally would much prefer a passive role, not only is it safer and more in line with my socially shy demeanor, but it also would help my feeling of self-worth a lot (when someone takes the risks to come on to you, that means that this person finds you attractive and worthy of the effort, in general). However, the submissive fantasy leaves me completely cold (at least, as a man).

    Maybe I’ve internalized the same thing I criticize a lot, that women’s worth is based mostly on whom they are (innate worth) and men’s worth is based mostly on what they do (conditional worth), and since submissives in general are not people who “do” but who get things done to them, submissive men seem devoid of worth. That’s harsh, really harsh, and I’m sorry if I offend, but I am just trying to make sense of my own feelings. What I feel is not always what I think.

  21. Schala says:

    Service submission is based on “doing” by the way.

    Service can be sexual, or domestic or whatever kind of ‘labor’. Basically, being asked to do something, and doing it.

    Some devolve their sense of self worth in satisfying others. Ie people who prefer following orders/instructions to giving them. People pleasers. Asperger people (or at least me) would generally prefer following instructions (generally docile), but might eschew them if they are found to be unjust (high sense of justice).

  22. Hugh Ristik says:

    VilentViolet said:

    I suppose this means, given that I’m a lot more into finding one already with inherently androgynous/feminine traits as opposed to forcing somebody into them, along with a preference for leading a relationship, I must *really* be an outlier from what the studies and common PUA knowledge suggest.

    Yes, you do sound like an outlier. Women in these studies seem to dislike being dominant, or leading the interaction.

    What were the specific methods used for the study, as in how clearly did they define D/s roles?

    As for the specific methods used in the study, you can read the whole thing here. See also my previous post where I discussed the fantasies used in the study.

    The study technically isn’t about D/s roles, at least, not in the sense of the BDSM community. The fantasies are about one person aggressively and dominantly initiating sexual activity with another. The researchers conceptualize these fantasies as “dominant” or “submissive,” but it’s not self-evident that the tendencies discovered in this study are the same sort of dominance and submission that are discussed in BDSM. The fantasies could also be labeled as “aggressive” / “receptive”, rather than “dominant” / “submissive.”

    I have a problem with the fact the sample came from only a midwestern university, and I’d like to see representations from all across the nation…from California to New York. I mean come on…what if these students only came from the bible belt!

    See the other study the post discussed, by Zurbriggen and Yost:

    Unlike Hawley & Hensley’s sample of 900 college students, Zurbriggen & Yost studied 162 people 21-45. They used a completely different methodology: instead of giving people scenarios, they asked people to write down fantasies, and then coded the answers for power themes. A similar pattern emerged of women’s fantasies gravitating towards submission, but men’s being split between dominance and submission: “Although men were equally likely to fantasize about dominance and submission, women were more likely to fantasize about submission.”

    Zurbriggen & Yost’s study was in Santa Cruz, and it was a much wider range of ages. Hawley & Hensley also cite some other studies finding high rates of submissive fantasies in women.

    When you have two studies with different methodology that were run with different samples of different ages and geographical locations, and they find similar results, that’s pretty impressive.

    More research is necessary to see how well these findings generalize, certainly. It wouldn’t surprise me to get different results in different countries. Yet even now, these results might make us lean one way or another in guessing what people fantasize about.

  23. Orlando C. at Kink Research Overviews has gone into this a little bit:
    http://kinkresearch.blogspot.c.....ratio.html

    Looking forward to the followup.

  24. [...] you would like to opt out of a world in which dominant, confident men are preferred as sexual partners, and would rather be transferred to an alternate universe in which heterosexual men can experience [...]

  25. George says:

    Hi Hugh, I’m a sociologist that’s become interested in the PUA community, game and an its interactions with feminism, etc, and I thought you might be interested in discussing some potential research. If so, please contact me through the email provided. I didn’t see any way to contact you or the site directly, but I’ve found your writing to be insightful and have some ideas for your consideration.

  26. [...] women will cop to some un-PC desires. Fantasies about non-consent are quite common – among hetero men as well as women. But when we go beyond fantasy, the desire to submit and be ravished is virtually always predicated [...]

  27. Kimsie says:

    America does not generalize. Men in america are focused on breasts. This infantilism can be projected into “monkey-like” (chinese mythos) behavior, which is predominantly submissive.
    In Japan, I think you’d see a far different version of things.

  28. Endless Summer says:

    America does not generalize… but you do?

  29. [...] not sure how this works out in the general population. But, for example, this study suggests that men and women both tend to really like submission fantasies and this fascinating bit of research indicates that in the UK BDSM scene more that half (60%) of [...]

  30. Asterisk says:

    Interestingly enough, we don’t need another experiment to get answers. Fetlife has an incredible amount of data that is accessible to researchers and can be used to better understand dominant and submissive trends among all genders.

  31. Stamp says:

    Old post, but very interesting results. My only concern is that the studies may not have simulated real life bedroom conditions very well. Frankly, my desire to dominate increases exponentially once I get a boner. Beforehand I am more predisposed to egalitarian lovin’. Once the fun begins, all kinds of previously unthinkable things become… well, more than thinkable. I suspect that I am not alone in having more pronounced or even different fantasies when significantly aroused.

    So I’m curious what the results would look like if participants had a couple minutes of foreplay or something. I’d venture a guess based on personal experience that gender differences would be more pronounced, but who really knows? Sadly, I don’t think you can get a fluffer past a research ethics board these days.

  32. Daran says:

    So I’m curious what the results would look like if participants had a couple minutes of foreplay or something.

    That’s an excellent point. Welcome to the blog.

  33. Carol says:

    Another BDSMer here, and I completely agree with Hugh. This wasn’t a study about BDSM or kink, it was a study asking vanilla women rsp. women in general about their sexual fantasies. I don’t see dominance/submission here as in D/s or anything vaguely BDSM-related.

    Instead I see the standard heteronormative sexuality played out according to common biological behaviour (male advances/penetration = dominant behaviour vs. female acceptance/being penetrated = submissive). That works just fine for women and men without the slightest kinky tendency.

    That we tend to use the same terms is unfortunate, and hence demands greatest care of those evaluating or using such data to convey proper circumstances. This unfortunately didn’t happen here.

    As to the alleged similarities to the spread of kinks and gender within the BDSM community, again those data are one-sided. Not only are women in general much LESS likely to be online, so one should take all data gathered online with a huge grain of salt, women also are much less likely to express themselves publicly about their sexuality.

    I’m a BDSM craftswoman, so I’m to a lot of private and public events, get to talk to a lot of tops and know the scene here quite well, even across borders. Not only am I not able to undersign these percentages for European BDSMers, I’m aware of enough local statistics which – once you extrapolate them to take care of the larger amount of men online and also the larger amount of men willing to go public with their sexuality – detail that roughly the same amounts of people are active in BDSM, regardless of gender, as are people in passive roles, again regardless of gender, with a spread of roughly 40% (active) : 60% (passive). I’m contacted by a lot more women into BDSM privately (outside the public scene), than men and if I look at the sheer numbers they even out for me.

    This is kink, and if you take the hard kinksters you get to see that all these attempts at gendering and gender roles fail, once you discard the subset who’re satisfying a cultural norm rather than an actual kink. I’d hasard that this is the case even with many allegedly dominant men.

    It’s truly no good comparing apples and oranges, as was done here, and as did the original poster of that Craiglist rant (who, I have to state, aids rape culture no end right there).

  34. ballgame says:

    Interesting observations, Carol. Welcome to the blog.

  35. Dawn says:

    The fictional scenarios that show men like to be aggressively dominated more than women… did those fictional scenarios have the dominating man and woman engaging in the same aggressive acts towards their submissive and, if so, might there be more pain involved if the man hits the woman than if the woman hits the man? I’m guessing more women might shy away from fantasies like that because they fear it would hurt like hell. How much force would be required for men to honestly be able to dominate versus how much would be required for women to do so likely factors into this, so I question whether it truly reflects a gender difference in preference for that type of dominance.

  36. Gyor says:

    The flaw in their question is that the initial scenerio isn’t submission vs. Dominance, its that its validation vs. initiative.

    I’m a Dominate who HATES being in a sexual submissive position.

    But getting slammed up against the wall and suddenly kissed by a super hot chick a huge turn on, not because she’s being dominate, but because as a fat guy I never get that kind of spontaneous validation from women, never mind a super hot one, so that is a huge turn on and appealing to my ego.

    For other, people who ache to simply act, but usually don’t, taking the initiative is the turn on, so slamming someone you want against the wall and taking them is appealing.

    Let me a add a little more content to the scenerio and you will see how either part can be dominate or submissive.

    “I’m a mind controlling wizard and when I got to the ball, I saw the Princess talking with Prince Charming, so in a fit of mischief, I cast a spell of lust on the Princess.

    The next thing you know she’s slamming me against the wall and kissing me, ripping her clothes off and begging me for sex in front of the whole ball.”

    Now while the Princess is more aggressive, the Wizard is clearly the dominate one, using magic to force the Princess into giving him public validation in a very humiliating way. It shows both intiative and submission on the Princess’ part.

    Now concider them.

    “The Bandit, threated me against, trying to get the Kingdom’s secrets but I slapped him across the face. He slammed me against the wall and kissed me with such passion, that I melted inside, surrendering in the face of his burning desire…”

    Now the Bandit is both aggressor and dominate, taking the intiative, while his victim is submissive and passive, surrendering to the all consuming validation she gets from the dominate Bandit.

    See how complex dominance and submission can be when it interacts with validation, iniative, agression, and passiveness. It can also interact with so many other facts leading to so many different fetishes.

    Its why I concider Dominance and Submission to be sexual orientations that mutate by interacting with other emotional needs, turn ons, and deep seated psychological issues to give birth to most fetishes in their diversity, not just what people traditionally think of as BDSM.

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