The identity of Roissy, author of a blog about “gaming” women, was recently outed. His outing set off a firestorm in the blogosphere about the merits of “game” and the “seduction community.”
According to Lady Raine, she outed him for publishing insulting posts about her, reposting photos of her and her young son from her Myspace page (now taken down), posting a porno video falsely joking that she was in it, being abusive and violent towards women, and advocating abuse. Lady Raine eventually retaliated by posting information on Roissy’s identity, occupation, and names of his family members that were dug up by readers (some of this information was already available online, while some was not).
A while ago, I had criticized Roissy for writing a post where he described slapping a girlfriend of his, said it was deserved, and argued that hitting women can turn them on in some circumstances. I asked him to clarify whether he really believed that hitting women was acceptable or not, but he has never responded. During this whole affair, that post has been deleted.
I made the same points more recently on his blog, here and here. The commenters are calling me a “gender traitor” and insisting that Roissy was being tongue-in-cheek. Are statements like this tongue-in-cheek:
be her authority, lead, slap her when necessary, playfully dismiss her juvenile provocations, and always be prepared to lay down the law
That sounds pretty literal, unless Roissy wants to clarify otherwise. I think his defenders are white-washing the fact that he has committed, justified, and suggested partner violence (yes, slapping is violence). Just because Roissy has correctly identified many of the problems men experience in the dating world, there is no need to turn him into some sort of figurehead who can do no wrong.
Roissy sent an apology through an intermediary through Lady Raine:
[...] I have received emails directly from “friends of Roissy” who would rather not be named. I have no problem with that. According to those people, Roissy is “sorry” for the many posts he has used my name in and has admitted to “using Lady Raine to get more blog hits” and “posting slander” simply to make his blog more popular.
[...]
Anyway, Roissy offered to take down his posts about me and never post anything about me again if I agree to remove MY post about him.
For Lady Raine, an indirect apology is not enough, and she kept her post up. She and Denise Romano, an anti-violence counselor, have reported him to the authorities.
Personally, I find the entire affair distasteful. I was no stranger to Roissy’s misogyny and condoning of slapping women, which I had criticized. I condemn his reposting of Lady Raine’s photos, particularly of her son. Furthermore, as someone who has gotten value from the teachings of the seduction community (even while having certain problems with it), I don’t like how people first exposed to writings on “game,” “pickup,” and “seduction” through Roissy’s blog will attain a skewed perception of what those things are all about.
At the same time, I can’t quite get on board with Lady Raine exposing his identity (even though it was publicly available with a little digging), or his employer, mailing address, and the names of his relatives (who have nothing to do with this). She refers to him with anti-Semitic insults, and has trouble understanding why readers find them offensive. Lady Raine sums up her plan for Roissy:
He deserves to be treated like a criminal and I intend to continue to make it that way until he either kills himself or disappears….whichever happens first.
Ah, but she’s just being tongue-in-cheek about trying to drive the guy to suicide, right? Just like Roissy’s remarks about women were tongue-in-cheek.
Roissy indeed advocates and excuses behavior that has no place in a civilized society. Yet if Lady Raine and Denise Romano believe that he is breaking the law, then the appropriate venue to raise that grievance is with the authorities.
Even though Roissy seems to recommend slapping women, his speech is probably constitutionally protected because he never advocated imminent lawless action. I don’t like seeing anonymous bloggers on the internet being maliciously exposed for exercising their freedom of speech, even when that freedom is being used for reprehensible speech.
The solution to reprehensible speech is more speech. Not outing a speaker who is trying to remain anonymous, and exposing his workplace, mailing address, and names of family members. Two wrongs do not make a right. Lady Raine describes protesting what she calls “revenge feminists,” certainly a laudatory pursuit. Yet her behavior towards Roissy places revenge over justice, and exemplifies the “revenge feminism” she supposedly condemns.
Update: Lady Raine took down some of Roissy’s personal info, like the names of his family members. While I would like to give her credit for such grace, I can’t, because WordPress made her do it due to Roissy’s complaints.
Note: In the comments of this post, disclosing people’s private information without consent is prohibited. That means that there should be no mention of Roissy’s personal details in this thread, though you may link to other blogs that do include this information, since I’ve had to do so to discuss this subject.
[This post is a duplicate of the NoH post above and has the "Regular Parallel" comment thread. Please read this for the commenting ground rules, this for an explanation of why posts are being duplicated, and this for an explanation for why some links in this post may not work. The NoH post will contain working links.]
So this Lady Raine person was wronged by this Roissy person and she “made it right” by revealing his identity and endorsing that picture which uses some of the exact same body image attacks used against women?
Yup. His identity was already revealed in an article in the Globe and Mail (though he seems to have asked them to remove it). Other information, like the names of his family members, were not publicly available, and have been finally taken down by Lady Raine due to WordPress.
Hey Hugh,
(1) This may be a little off topic. You write that “I don’t like how people first exposed to writings on “game,” “pickup,” and “seduction” through Roissy’s blog will attain a skewed perception of what those things are all about.”
What would be a good all-around introduction to ‘game’ on the web besides Neil Strauss’ books, which I don’t consider all that well written.
The thing is, when it comes to ‘game’, there are so many, often conflicting, voices that one wonders if too many cooks spoil the broth.
Can you provide some links/sources that you feel are better examples?
(2) You also write that “Roissy has correctly identified many of the problems men experience in the dating world”. What are some of the things that you think he is right about? I had only recently started his blog and until now, I had no idea about his encouragement of violence towards women. And I personally think that ‘the beta of the month’ competitions are pretty instructional.
Hi AnlamK,
There isn’t really a good all-around introduction to “game” currently on the web. Fastseduction.com and it’s forum mASF were where I started, but the information is not organized in a friendly way.
The lack of organization of information on the seduction community, and the conflicting information you observe, make it very hard to understand. That’s exactly why discussions on the subject can be so difficult. Unfortunately, many people get exposed to one facet of it, and start generalizing. Getting a real idea of what the community is about would take the equivalent of a 5-unit college course. Plus, you have to see it done in real life.
Elana Clift’s honors thesis on the community is a pretty good descriptive foray into the community by a feminist student, though some aspects of it are slightly biased and skewed.
If someone wants to learn basic social skills, especially dating-related social skills, then SucceedSocially.com and DatingGroundwork.com is a top-notch resource. The author learned a lot from the seduction community, and tried to extract what was positive and helpful for him. He also writes a critique of the seduction community, and the weird attitudes it can give men, while acknowledging that it was helpful for him and for many men.
Strauss’ book is interesting to me as a description of his experience, though it is limited to his/Mystery’s styles of game. It’s an entertaining story, but it can only give a partial descriptive picture of what the community is actually about, and it is not an instructional guide.
The companies that I like are Juggler, Pickup 101, and AMP.
I’ll try to find you some other links, but I do think the “Beta of the month” is a good example.
This is f’ed up all around. I don’t approve of what Lady Raine did, but I do find Roissy to be a bigger a-hole than I previously thought. I had him in my blogroll because I thought that despite his flaws, he did make some good points. I decided to remove him after reading this.
Note: I’ve moved Denise Romano’s comments (and replies to her) to the no hostility version of the thread to better facilitate discussion.
Thanks, Hugh.
Ooops, sorry Hugh. I hope my other comments aren’t in the wrong place. I was very careful not to “name names” and not to say anything that is hateful.
Just move them around if I did by accident. My apologies in advance for….well….my personality
I find it intriguing that an individual who makes excuses for perpetrators of partner abuse and even more brutal attacks is welcomed here.
Hi, Gwallan,
To whom are you referring in your comment above?
I didn’t get a reply to my last comments to you on LR’s and my blogs.
I hope you’re well.
Denise
oops. NOH
[Don't worry, we moved it. —Hugh]
Okay. I’ve read a bit of both Lady Raine and Roissy and, right now, I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone gives a fig about these two
shrewsand their hissing match?Ms Romano…
I ceased that conversation because you demonstrated yourself to be precisely what I’d anticipated. It doesn’t matter what the atrocity is there always an excuse forthcoming for violent women. Always.
The mere fact that you recognised yourself in my comment here reinforces those notions.
You should not be allowed in the same building as a male victim. Take the hint and do not address me again.